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Author Topic: Oak Mountain 2007 TARC team  (Read 2864 times)
bripappas
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« on: March 20, 2007, 08:37:46 PM »

Okay, First off I have been meaning to make this message for a long time.  My name is Brian Pappas and I am the "program manager" for our Oak Mountain TARC team (5264).  I have made contact with of few members of the Birmingham Rocket Boys and regret that I have not made much use of your valuble resource. 

Basically I thought I could tell you how it is going so far and use any feedback you give.  I realize that we are now down to the wire since the deadline for qulaification is a mere three weeks away.  As of now, we have made several practice flights and are pretty close on altitude and getting closer on time.  The main problem we are having now is repeatability.  It just seems almost impossible to constantly get very close to 850 ft and 45 sec with the percent error of the rocket engine and varying wind conditions. 

Our rocket is about 30 in tall, 2.5 inches in diamter, and uses a F42-8 engine.  The top 8 inches or so is the payload section that contains the egg (so far no cracked eggs even with and 1100 foot free fall) and altimeter.

So i guess at this point I really have two questions

1.  Is there any tips you can give to help with the repeatability issue.

2.  Since the deadline is approaching if any NAR senior member will be available the next few weeks to watch an attempt at a qualification flight.

Thanks, I will try my best to check back here often, but i will be out of town for most of this weekend without acess to a computer.
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birming8
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« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2007, 10:37:43 PM »

Brian, I am sure that one of our senior members will be happy to verify the qualifying flight. I have also put out the word to check out your post, to see if we can get you some feed back on your question.

Thanks,
Blake
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George Gassaway
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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2007, 01:45:37 PM »

>>>>>
Basically I thought I could tell you how it is going so far and use any feedback you give.  I realize that we are now down to the wire since the deadline for qulaification is a mere three weeks away.  As of now, we have made several practice flights and are pretty close on altitude and getting closer on time.  The main problem we are having now is repeatability.  It just seems almost impossible to constantly get very close to 850 ft and 45 sec with the percent error of the rocket engine and varying wind conditions. 

Our rocket is about 30 in tall, 2.5 inches in diamter, and uses a F42-8 engine.  The top 8 inches or so is the payload section that contains the egg (so far no cracked eggs even with and 1100 foot free fall) and altimeter.
<<<<<

This is why this is such a challenge.

What are you getting regarding just the altitude consistency? Duration consistency is to some extent directly linked to altitude consistency (higher altitude = longer time, lower altitude = shorter time), so that is why I ask about altitude first.

Altitude can vary for various reasons. First, of course, the engine could vary either in its newton-second total, or by the time delay. But composite engines tend to be pretty consistent. And whatever minor inconsistency there may be, that is part of the game everyone else is having to deal with.

Areas to look at for altitude consistency be the launcher, the wind, and any launch angle. If the launch rod is flimsy, or the rocket otherwise does not take off consistently time after time, then that can throw it off right from the start. So, a larger diameter (stiffer) rod, and perhaps longer, could help it if that is an issue. If you are already using a 1/4 inch rod 4 feet long, then that ought to be sufficient.

Wind could also affect it. Has the rocket always flown straight up, or has it sometimes curved into the wind? Any flights that are not vertical would fly lower, and the more it curved into the wind, the lower it would end up flying.

Although, with an F42, that thrust level probably is enough to prevent it from being affected a lot by wind, unless you flew on a really windy day. If you were using a rocket that had lower thrust, then I would suspect wind to have had a lot of effect on altitude consistency.

Now, let's assume that you got the altitude consistency worked out, and focus on duration consistency.

Duration can be affected widely by the air conditions when you fly. A rocket could make ten flights to 850 feet and could easily have a wide range of durations.

The biggest variation in the flying conditions would be updrafts and downdrafts. Usually in the form of thermals, which are small spots of rising air, that sometimes are visible as "dust devils". Also, when air rises in a thermal,  it displaces surrounding air, making it move downwards, so outside of a thermal there is downward moving air. So, for duration consistency, you want to avoid flying when there is a thermal nearby since the model could either hit rising air or falling air. Now, how to really spot a thermal, that is a big issue since it is more of an art than a science, contest flying model rocketeers (and model airplane contest fliers) have one put in a lot of time learning how to detect thermals, and even the best miss detecting them by 10-20% of the time.

About the best I could suggest to help detect thermals is to use a $10 Wal-Mart bubble machine (Gazillion Bubbles has a great machine), or a several students, to blow bubbles and see if the bubbles rise (thermal) , fall quickly (probably down air), or drift a bit and fall (probably sort of neutral air). In addition, make use of a 15 to 20 foot pole (like a telescoping fishing pole) and tape a 15 to 20 foot long piece of videotape from a worn out T-160 VHS tape, the T-160 is thinner than the T-120 tapes. The long tape streamer is very sensitive, so it shows what the wind is doing. When there is a thermal nearby it can actually start pointing upwards a bit. Although the more wind there is, the less useful bubbles and streamer poles are to be of use.

If you wanted to read more about thermals, see this article that Ken Mizoi and I wrote long ago ,which is on the Apogee website:

http://www.apogeerockets.com/education/detecting_thermals.asp

The GOOD thing is that you are not looking to find a thermal, you are trying to assure there is no thermal around, but still it could be tricky to learn enough to help you avoid a thermal. Although, later in this message I'm going to give you a pretty sure-fire way to avoid thermals and downdrafts.

Another tip I can give in this area is that a thermal sucks air into it near the ground, and that affects the relative wind you feel. On a mostly calm day, it will make the wind direction change, so if you notice a shift to a certain direction that the wind generally has not blown, that probably is a thermal sucking in air near you. On a windier day, you might not notice a direction shift, but you can notice a wind velocity shift. If say the average general wind was 6 miles per hour, and the thermal sucked in air at 4 miles, per hour, you might notice the wind getting slower, from 6 MPH to 2 MPH ( 6MPH  - 4 MPH), as the thermal might be upwind of you, sucking in air at 4 mph. Then when the thermal passed by, downwind of you, it would get a lot stronger, to about 10 mph (6 mph + 4 MPH).   So, if you were flying on such a day and noticed these cycles, you could wait for the thermal to have passed far away, the wind to have returned to normal, and then fly. Take note that otherwise, for regular sport rocket flying we usually thing it is a GOOD thing for the wind to drop and then fly, but that may well mean a thermal is near which you do not want due to how it would affect the consistency.

Here is the sure-fire way. The best thing of all would be if you could just go out and fly early, shortly after dawn. The winds are pretty calm, and thermals usually do not start till at least after 9 AM. The worst time to fly would be mid-day. If I were competing in this myself, I'd do everything shortly after dawn when the air would be the most consistent. Note quite as good, an alternative would be to fly very late in the day, in the hour before sundown.

Here is a link to my favorite weather website to use a day or two before a  BRB launch,  or for days when I am considering going out to fly at a little local site:

http://tinyurl.com/2klec

Note the graphs for the wind velocity, how it usually drops at night and picks up in the middle of the day. How nice it would  be to fly about 7-8 AM tomorrow.

Have you worked out the descent rates of your previous flights? What are they? Take the altitude in feet and divide by the time in the air, to find out how many feet per second the model descends. If the descent rate from flight to flight is not very close, and assuming you are using the same chute and it deploys 100%, then you would pretty much be looking at how the air conditions are affecting the model (so, this type of analysis helps you separate out how the varying altitude is affecting the duration). Compare your average descent rate to what the ideal descent rate should be (850 feet divided by 45 seconds = ideal descent rate in feet per second).

Now, let's imagine you have a rocket that always goes 850 feet, and you are flying in air that is consistent. So then it ought to come down to dialing in the parachute performance to achieve that ideal descent rate. I would assume the parachute is packed consistently, and always deploys 100% correctly (otherwise, you have to fix that).

If the time comes in under 45 seconds, you'd need a parachute that would be a little bit bigger. If the time was say 10% under 45 seconds, then you'd want to make a new chute about 10% larger in area (not in diameter,  but in area). 

If you had a flight time that was consistently a little over 45 seconds, then you could either go to a chute a little bit smaller, or else "reef" the shroud lines a little bit. Reefing the lines is simply shortening them a bit so the chute does not deploy to the same effective diameter as it does with regular length shroud lines. It would not take much reefing. But reefing might be a bit tricky to dial in without doing  number of flights, so again it might be better to make a new chute, this time making diameter a little bit smaller.

Also when making a new chute, it would need to use the same material and shroud line length as the original. You would not want to use a fabric chute for one flight, and plastic for another flight, as the chute performance likely would not be the same for the same diameter, so it would be tricky to try to extrapolate (or plain guess) what correction factor to use between a fabric chute or cloth chute. If you are using a commercially made fabric chute, then you'd not have time to get a new one made, so if you were a bit over 45 seconds then you might be better off reefing the lines a bit.

Lastly, do not wait till the last day or two before the deadline to make your qualifying flight. The weather might not be good then, a rainout would be very bad after all your work. And rain is not the only possible issue,  a very windy day also would hurt your chances.

- George Gassaway
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George Gassaway
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« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2007, 10:00:31 PM »

I realized a flaw in what I wrote about the descent rate:

>>>>>>
Have you worked out the descent rates of your previous flights? What are they? Take the altitude in feet and divide by the time in the air, to find out how many feet per second the model descends. If the descent rate from flight to flight is not very close, and assuming you are using the same chute and it deploys 100%, then you would pretty much be looking at how the air conditions are affecting the model (so, this type of analysis helps you separate out how the varying altitude is affecting the duration). Compare your average descent rate to what the ideal descent rate should be (850 feet divided by 45 seconds = ideal descent rate in feet per second).
>>>>>>

I forgot to account for the time from liftoff to ejection. The listed burn time for an F42 is 1.3 seconds. The time delay you are using is 8 seconds. So, the chute should be ejecting at about 9.3 seconds into the flight. So, when you work out the descent rates, you should subtract 9.3 seconds from whatever flight times you got for each flight, to produce the "time from deployment to landing". Then divide the Altitudes of each flight by the corresponding deployment to landing times of each flight.

And this also affects the ideal descent rate. If you can get your rocket to fly to right at 850 feet, then the ideal descent rate you want is 850 feet divided by 35.7 seconds (9.3 seconds subtracted frrom the 45 second target time), not 850 feet divided by 45 seconds. The original I wrote would have produced an incorrect  ideal descent rate that, everything being equal (flying to 850 feet, consistent chute,  and calm air), would have meant the model would in theory fly 9.3 seconds too long, 54.3 seconds. You want the model  to be landing at 35.7 seconds after ejection, assuming the engine ejects the chute 9.3 seconds after liftoff.

- George Gassaway
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George Gassaway
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« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2007, 01:35:49 PM »

A few more thoughts.

>>>>
Our rocket is about 30 in tall, 2.5 inches in diamter, and uses a F42-8 engine.  The top 8 inches or so is the payload section that contains the egg (so far no cracked eggs even with and 1100 foot free fall) and altimeter.
<<<<

For any rocket intended to fly to 850 feet, 8 seconds seems too long of a delay. Of course if the altimeter is properly recording the apogee, then the late ejection should not be too much of an issue as long as the parachute and shock cord system is strong enough to withstand a high speed deployment. But that would have an effect on trying to work out the descent rate, if the model is ejecting a few hundred feet below the apogee altitude recorded by the altimeter.

You mention that the model fell from 1100 feet once, so if the altimeter was correct it seems the rocket is over-flying 850 feet by a lot. If you had other flights that went lower, but they were lower due to wind or a bad liftoff, well, by flying in calmer air and getting off to a good launch the rocket should be flying as high or higher than your highest flight so far. So if the rocket is capable of flying to 1100 feet or more with the F42,  you probably have to make a drastic change to get the rocket to fly close to 850 feet.

What is the weight of the rocket? Either all-up liftoff weight, or weight without engine but with egg and everything else. You said it is 2.5 inches diameter, but if you are using commercial rocket parts, most likely it is 2.6 inches in diameter as I do not know of any commercial tubes/noses that are 2.5 inches.

If you are indeed getting around 1100 feet on the F42 engine, which has about 53 newton-seconds, then you would come close to 850 feet if you used a high thrust 40 newton second E engine, such as the Aerotech E30.

I know time is very short , you only have 14 days to fly before the deadline as I type this. But if you were to go for a different engine such as the E30, you could order some from Hobbylinc:      www.hobbylinc.com

They are based in Georgia and deliver orders VERY quickly. If you ordered engines on Tuesday, you’d probably have them by Thursday.

I must say though that I took a guess at the weight of your rocket, figured it is 2.6” diameter,  and used a flight sim program that indicated it probably would not break 1000 feet on the F42. So if the rocket actually does not fly over 1000 feet on an F42, then going to an E would put it pretty far below 850 feet.

So then you might have to do something significant to the rocket itself to make it fly lower on an F42, doing something to add drag or adding weight. That could help make it fly closer to 850 feet, but  it is already ejecting pretty late due to the 8 second delay, so adding drag or weight to make it fly lower means it would it would go even more past apogee coming down, and would be moving a lot faster at ejection and possibly rip the parachute or shock cord.

I had not actually read the rules until today, to see how the event is scored. I am surprised to see that the duration portion does not have nearly as significant an effect on the score as the altitude does. It is simply the altitude error plus the duration error. I would have thought that the duration error would be multiplied by something like a factor of 10 or even 20.

So, this is really weighted toward an altitude challenge to 850 feet. If the rocket flies to 800 or  900 feet but flew for 45 seconds, it would have a total error of 50 points.  If the rocket flies to 850 feet but the duration was 95 seconds, it would have a total error of 50 points. It is far harder to get the rocket to fly close to 850 feet than to get it to fly close to 45 seconds.  If you had a 20% error in duration (36 or 54 seconds), it would just cost you 9 points. But a 20% error in altitude ( 680 or 1020 feet) would cost you 170 points. The altitude error from 850 feet is the most important to work on.

- George Gassaway
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bripappas
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« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2007, 05:09:17 PM »

Dear Mr. Gassaway
Thanks for all of your responses this past weekend.  I will now try to answer all of the question that you asked to the best of my ability.

*weight----475g (without engine)
*diameter--2.6 in
*The 1100 feet was from our very first flights, we have since redesigned part of the rocket to have higher drag and added a little bit of weight
*Due to thermals, and the fact the parachute does open on its way down from apogee the decent rate is difficult to figure out but i can estimate it around 13-15 feet per second (that is a rough estimate)
*On altitude we are starting to get pretty consistent usually coming within 20 feet of the target altitude on the second launch of the day after making some small adjustments for varying conditions
*Our launch rod is a six foot, 1/4 inch diameter rod

I think that about answers all of you major questions

The day after i had posted my first message, we went and flew again.  This time it was just a little breezy and we did not know about detection thermals.  On our last launch of the day the rocket flew great, however it got stuck in a thermal and just hung there in the sky.  I was watching my stop watch in amazement as it clicked past 1 minute and 15 seconds.  (I was expecting it to come down close the the 45 seconds)  At about 1 minute and 30 seconds that rocket had not moved much at all and was grabbed by a large gust of wind.  Now we had a rocket staying at the same altitude traveling pretty fast horizontally.  We lost if after about 2min and 15 seconds above the tree line.  Luckily after about 30 min of searching in the woods we found it and managed to get it our of the tree only yesterday.  Anyway we now have some minor damage that can be fixed quickly i we learned our lesson about thermals.  Using the tips you gave us we will try again to avoid thermals.  We are going to get together tomorrow and repair the rocket and figure out when we are going to launch.  I will post back again when i have some dates on our launches and then we can figure out a qualification flight time.  Thanks again
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George Gassaway
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« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2007, 07:03:58 PM »

>>>>
*On altitude we are starting to get pretty consistent usually coming within 20 feet of the target altitude on the second launch of the day after making some small adjustments for varying conditions
<<<<

That is VERY GOOD. Having a rocket miss the 850 foot target altitude by just 20 feet is far better than most of the other teams will be able to do, I think. So, if you can make a qualifying flight that is that close on altitude, and do not thermal the model, I think you'd be very likely to make it in the top 100 for the finals. And if you make the top 100 to go to the finals, you can still tweak the model a bit afterwards to try to get the duration dialed in to 45 and maybe the altitude if it always goes a little high or a little low of 850.

If your model went 20 feet high of 850 on one flight and 20 feet low of 850 on another, and both seemed to take off the same, then you'd be in the "noise level" of variables of engine performance, altimeter consistency, and other random flight variables, in which case you'd never want to tweak it. It would be dialed in as well as the noise level allows for.

So, if you can get it within 20 feet of 850, then  I would suggest not doing anything to affect the altitude. And also not do anything with your recovery system that might hurt reliability. Go with what you know works, get that egg back safe, and if it ended up flying for 55 or perhaps even 65 seconds, I think that probably would get you into the top 100. Then since you are allowed two qualifying flights, if you want to try to tweak the performance a little, do it for the second flight to try to improve the score (get a lower score). But get in a good solid first flight that right now sounds like it is indeed making solid flights. Long as you miss the thermals.

BTW - where are you flying? Sounds like you have a sort of decent sized recovery area, even though it did land in the woods due to the thermal.

- George Gassaway
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bripappas
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« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2007, 07:39:26 PM »

One of the team member's grandparents owns a large farm just north of Chelsea.  If you go south on 280 and come to CR 47 it is down that way.  Using Google Earth to measure it, it is about 1500 by 1500 ft.  When i get back on my personal computer at home i will post the coordinates of its location so you can find it in google earth or virtual earth.
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